Segment Visualizer with bach/dada and descriptors~

@tremblap of course, that was a stupid question to ask, sorry!

Yes, that works great! :slight_smile:
Thanks for sharing.
A couple of things off the top of my head:
-It’s only not very clear to me how you define the distances; for instance in this case I’ve used energy and pitch and all distances are between 17570.641557 and 17571.something… I’m using the acustic guitar strumming example. That is true for different datasets as well… not sure how distances are computed…

  • as a little side note, I wouldn’t use [t s s] for lists (bach or Max) but rather [t l l]. Both should work fine but the first one had a drawback I don’t remember… On the other hand I’m sure that [t l] just lets anything pass through, whatever comes in comes out.

-It seems that you always need to clear the samples before adding the new sound isn’t it? Otherwise some “old” samples are left around but won’t play properly (cause src is changed)
I also cleared the “dists” table and added automatic retrigger of distances.

@tremblap I hope you won’t mind, i’ve modified your patch, especially the distance part, adding normalization with respect to maxima (not to minima, I should have done that as well…). But you’ll see that’s not much shorter than yours :wink: Maybe it has some “bach slang” you can grasp, if you’re interested in it…
Here it is!


----------begin_max5_patcher----------
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Hi Daniele,

thanks for the modified version.
Hovering over the distance representation generated this crash.
crash.txt.zip (32.3 KB)

hello

thanks for this. Will try your patch later today, but in the meantime some answers:

It’s only not very clear to me how you define the distances

I do euclidian distance (sum all the squares of delta, then square-root) and I don’t get the values you get at all… I’ll check the patch I’ve posted, but all values are about in the same ball park (-180 0 for energy in dB, and 0 to 136 in floatmidi for the 4 spectral ones) so difference should be in the same ballpark. I did a normalised version, but normalising on the extreme potential of each descriptor (I’m sure you’re aware of the overweighting issue of doing min-max norm so I did not even tried it… I’ll try your patch too).

I wouldn’t use [t s s] for lists (bach or Max) but rather [t l l]

thanks!

It seems that you always need to clear the samples before adding the new sound isn’t it? Otherwise some “old” samples are left around but won’t play properly (cause src is changed)

My version does that. Now you worry me that I’ve posted the wrong patch. I’m checking this now :wink:
(2 seconds later)
I actually do this at another moment: when I trigger a new segmentation. It probably should be done both times.

===
now I’ve tested the acoustic guitar distances in my patch and I don’t get what you get at all. I get very healthy distances in the right ballpark…

I hope you won’t mind, i’ve modified your patch

I’m honoured! this is the whole point of this forum: to share and improve patches - so I’ll look at yours and try to reproduce the distance errors you get and that I don’t get.

no crash here… I use the GolcarWithDog soundfile.

OK I could not resist: I found why your version of my patch distance does not work - you use the one I sent you, not the one posted here (which had been corrected and made log-lin)

Check the one I posted here, and I’ll try to get my head around your ninja Bach-ing to do the distance calculations… I’m a (many times over) Bach beginner so it’ll take some meditation :wink:

@tremblap oook… that was the issue!
Sorry, I started from the one you sent me, not the one you posted.
I’ll check the newer one out then!

@tutschku Ouch, weird crash… can’t reproduce either… Seems to be about dada.distances. Not sure I’ve spotted it, but I might have put a patch. It should not happen, though.

Does it happen only with my patch and NOT with PA’s?

let me know, always eager to learn (I still can’t get my head around your unfolding combinatorial trick but I’ll get there)

Forgive me if this is a stupid answer, but isn’t @danieleghisi 's trick to just use bach.comb ?

Additionally, I can get the distance calculator to work all the way up to bach.comb (by disconnecting the patch cables and observing bach.print). Is there a soft-limit on how many combinations can be calculated before you start running into hangs? My SQL db for a patch has 3500 entries and bach.comb just seems to make the whole thing hang with no end in sight.

Hi @jamesbradbury , are you taking combinations of 2 by 2 only? i.e. [bach.comb 2] ?
If so, (3500 choose 2) should be around 6.5 millions, so yes, that’s certainly something bach should be able to work with. For instance, this patch takes about 10 seconds on my machine… Then if you have heavy process for each of the couple, this time will be multiplied by a certain factor, but the complexity seems treatable.

If on the other hand you want ALL combinations, i.e. [bach.comb] tout court, that’s just not going to happen, because you have 2^3500 ~ 10^1000 of them :slight_smile:


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Ha, yes. bach.comb 2 only! I’m not trying to re-create the library of babel in this example :wink:

The patch you sent me has shown me its possible although it seems that with bach.comb making all the possible combinations and then calculating distance on top of that my patch is quite slow. I’ll try to optimise then post.

‘just’ using bach.comb is not the hard bit to understand in his patch, @jamesbradbury :wink:

What is hard for me is the flattening of complex nested objects (the entries from dada.base) and fetch only the info I need at the right place to do the right distances with only what I need. This is why I did mine in max: it was simpler to get my head around it with vexpr - I have not done any performance comparison between our patches, since I would need to port @danieleghisi to mine (he used an old version as a starting base)… now I’m curious so I’ll do that now, stay tuned!

Hello

So I understood the Bach iterator/combinator with indices (learning bach is great) and removed the normalisation in @danieleghisi example (because the values are in the same ballpark anyway and normalising brings another set of problems we can talk about another time)

It is not much faster, but much more elegant :wink:

@danieleghisi: I was entering 2 distances per distance in the database (a to b and b to a) and I can see your patch does not do that. Is it done automagically inside?

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-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

Hi PA, no automagic, unfortunately :slight_smile:
No that’s put only once in the distance table, but actually that’s all you need. Indeed dada.distances queries all the distances and the only thing it cares is to find it once, so you never need to put it twice (I’m not sure - putting it twice may even lead to complications, which would be a bug of course…).

Long story short: once per couple (any ordere) is enough :wink:

ok the examples in the help files do have both sides of the distance matrix so I felt I had to do it… as you can see it is now working. I have ircam.descriptors~ and @a.harker’s cohabitating now to get more accurate spectral descriptions, until we have the fluid.descriptors (and/or updated ah ones) and I’m back to some normalisation I want to do on the full range (because Kurtosis is not very usefull our of the +/-3 (or 0-6) range but that is not playing ball with the 0-130 range of pitch and amp…

Hi PA,

do you have an updated version of this patch?
I’m interested to see if the dada distances can be helpful for
measuring mfcc’s.
Thanks, Hans

1 Like

I’ll do that in the next days for you. Stay tuned!

What I can say is that it is my patch that calculates the distance matrix that is then populating the dadabase. It is Euclidian distance

1 Like

OK here it is updated with a better folder reader (from the example folder and not commented yet) and the new syntax.

What I have not done is to use our description and stats objects on it. That is for the next pass, as I’m curious to see how we can do that in there. If you get ahead of me, as I’m unlikely to be able to do that in the immediate future, please post the patch here


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-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
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