Spectral "Compensation"?

I don’t know why this is the case, but having a buffer~ 256_loudness -1 2 @samps 7 gives me a size of 7samps, but somehow it’s 10.15873ms…

Screen Shot 2020-05-15 at 11.41.40 am

What’s stranger is that it seems to actually write the full length of the buffer.

This is what I see when I view the contents of buffer~ 256_spectral_shape_stats -1 7 @samps 14

There are 14 “samples” of information there, but it seems to cover around 20ms of “time”.

I don’t know if this is partly why I’m seeing strange results in processing time when changing @blocking modes.

Possibly this is because the marked sample rates of ‘feature’ buffers (like loudness etc) are changed to take into account the hop size (and it’s possible there’s a mistake in the calculation).

If you run a spectral analysis on a buffer with a hop size of 512, then the duration of each sample of the feature is the same as 512 samples of the orginal audio, so for 44.1k audio, the sample rate of the feature is 44.1k/512 -> 86Hz plus change. So the reported duration of the feature buffer should match the duration of the chunk you analysed, more or less. If it doesn’t, then there’s probably a booboo.

1 Like

Hmm. Wouldn’t that be impossible with @blocking 2? Or I think I’m just not understanding how buffer~s work (where it can be 7 samples and 10ms long).

It’s a bit messy, but here’s the bit of patch that generated that stuff:


----------begin_max5_patcher----------
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-----------end_max5_patcher-----------

The sr for max buffers is just a flag which then gets used (by Max) to convert the number of frames into a ms duration. Changing it doesn’t actually alter the size or content of the buffer at all.

OMG, everything I thought I knew about you is in tatters. Only one coloured patch cable, and objects that aren’t aligned. I think I need a lie down. More seriously, I don’t see yet which bit of this is hinging on an ms duration of the buffer, but I’ll take a closer look later.

3 Likes

Hehe, it will get there in the end. I’m just copy/paste-ing bits of code around and tweaking things, so there’s not much to tidy yet.

I’ll spare you the horror that is the duct-tape and spit version of the Kaizo Snare patch I went onto stage with cuz of all the last minute bugs and weirdness.

Nothing there hinges on size, but all the buffers there have diff samples vs ms, but I guess it’s what you’ve described where the sample rate is not 44.1k.

I’m just wrestling and tweaking settings to see how low I can get the processing time while still getting the data out that I (think I) want.

Ok, a bit of a (short) breakthrough, followed by some sadness and disappointment.

After inquiring over on the cycling forum about a way to create filters quickly and on-the-fly and someone suggested (quite helpfully) to try out fffb~, and on the surface this seems like a perfect solution. In the patch, the way things work at the moment is that the fluid.part~ of the patch generates a list of frequencies and decibels, and then the hiss.part~ of the patch creates an IR from that.

So if I just convert the dB output from the analysis/stats part of the process into linear amplitude I should be able to feed that right into fffb~ right!?..

Well, when I did that, it didn’t sound right at all. Because I had things like this:

Those dB values don’t correspond with the filter I’m seeing at all.

So after tracing the patch I realized that a part of the old patch that is pretty important is the maxgain message to irstats~. This takes the filter output from fluid.bufmelbands~fluid.bufstats~ and scales it so I have more-or-less unity gain from the resultant filter.

Bypassing irstats~ ends up giving me filters that are waay too quiet for the most part.

I tried taking the normalization bit from @jamesbradbury’s automatic spectral compensation patch and that gives me better results, but I don’t know/think that’s the way to go about that.

Now, bypassing hiss.stuff~ means I don’t have the smoothing and other nice bells and whistles of that approach, but I was hoping to at least be able to implement a rough EQ quickly, but I’m not sure how to go about approximating the maxgain of an EQ curve.

The helpfile for irstats~ has this to say about maxgain:

Estimated maximum gain within any octave of the IR in dB

Is there a specific formula for this, and is it possible to calculate it using a list of frequencies and gain settings?

Here’s an example of one of the curves:

221.833218 -33.454389 362.220601 -36.311383 523.987791 -38.297038 710.390753 -39.677351 925.181305 -41.060575 1172.682637 -43.307582 1457.876324 -45.938757 1786.50259 -42.903525 2165.17585 -45.6 2601.517837 -47.113147 3104.311008 -47.386607 3683.675316 -45.473278 4351.271895 -49.073143 5120.537773 -47.560681 6006.95632 -51.866266 7028.368896 -49.935765 8205.333946 -47.85 9561.540794 -50.37641 11124.286444 -48.3 12925.025005 -48.543471

Also, and I guess this is something I can try to test out, but if I’m using fffb~ would I then need to specify the “outer” frequencies and give them a gain of 1 so the overall filter is shaped correctly? (as in 20 Hz @ 1.0 and 20k Hz @ 1.0, which it seems like iruser~ is doing something along those lines)

Ok, based on some great input from @tremblap the other day, I played with this further, and rather than normalizing the filter I just bumped it up in gain relative to the highest point.

It sounds a touch better, but it still wasn’t right.

So I decided to measure the output of fffb~ using irmeasure~ and the results were…

This is the dark sound:
Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 4.51.01 pm

(red is HIRT, green is fffb~)

I mean, it’s not great, but it’s crudely in the ballpark.

Next up the kind of peak filter sound:
Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 4.51.28 pm

If you squint you can see that there is a bit of a bump in the middle there. It’s very very subtle…

And finally the bright one:
Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 4.51.59 pm

Again, a bit of a bump towards the top end, but all of them have a really shit rolloff in the top end and are super approximate. Like super super approximate.

So I thought maybe the Q needs to be adjusted, and reran everything, but with each filter of fffb~ having a Q of 10.

Dark:
Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 6.00.58 pm

I mean, it’s closer. Tons of ripple in the mids, the lows are all gone, as are the highs.

Middle one:
Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 6.01.25 pm

Again, closer. With loads of ripple and clamped extremities.

Finally the high one:
Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 6.01.48 pm

The best match so far, again barring the high end.

This sounds more correct, but still sounds like shit.

It occurs to me that iruser~ and fffb~ may be treating what happens “past” the lowest and highest frequencies different. For iruser~ the lowest given frequency is 221 Hz and the highest one is 12925 Hz. It could be that fffb~ takes whatever is past that point as being -inf dB. This would perhaps explain the high frequency rolloff, but the lows tend to kind of be there, or at least don’t take a hit as bad as the high end does.

Here’s a patch to compare with:


----------begin_max5_patcher----------
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Ok, so I played with this some more.

After realizing that fffb~ sounds like butts, I figured I’d try something “a bit nicer”. The classic cascade~. I figured since the frequencies are fixed, I can probably set the gains (quickly) and not blow things up.

After playing around I got something kind of working, but it still sounds a bit shit.

I think the issue I’m running into has to do with the Q of each individual filter. I guess with something like iruser~ you create points where the filter just “connects the dots” between those frequency/dB pairs, and something like “Q” doesn’t exist in that paradigm(?), whereas manually trying to create a filter, I have to specify Qs.

The code below has the lowshelf and highshelf with a Q of 1.0 and everything else with 2.5 (which I believe is the default). This works in places (looks ok for the “dark” one) but in other places it creates insane spikes (the “middle” one).

Is there some kind of formula or tapered distribution that I should apply to the mel-band distribution to create something that sounds alright?

If I set all the Qs to 1.0, the whole filter gets thrown out of whack because the Qs overlap and it overly sucks out the middle, leaving the ends to hyped up. If I set them too narrow, I get spikes everywhere all the time.

Here’s the dark:
Screenshot 2020-06-11 at 3.03.19 pm

The middle:
Screenshot 2020-06-11 at 3.03.23 pm

The high:
Screenshot 2020-06-11 at 3.03.28 pm

Even as it stands, the cascade~ version sounds better than the fffb~ version, but it still sounds way too artificial, mainly because the Q overlap overhypes the highs/lows for each filter.


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what you would need is some sort of LPC algorithm to guestimate your filters… I’m sure @a.harker has ideas about this as we discussed in another thread.

1 Like

Interesting.

Had a search on the forum but only came up with this (from what feels like forever ago, in terms of real-world time…)

The initial issue raised there, of not knowing the envelope of an incoming sound is solved by onset descriptors thing, but pointing fluid.bufmelbands~ at it. So I’ve got the frequencies/dBs, it’s now just a matter of turning that into some kind of useful filter (while avoiding HIRT stuff).

I’ve just skimmed the whole of this very long thread, and it seems like we’re almost back where we started :laughing: FWIW, I think the problem with using fffb~ is that these are resonant filters deliberately designed to put their character on a sound, but you want something more subtle. If you’re happy enough with envelope estimation via melbands, have you considered mc.cross? You could set this up with appropriate band centres and bandwidths for your mel bank, and then vary the gain of the outputs before mixing down again.

2 Likes

Hehe yeah. Covered loads of ground here!

Took a bit to get something working practically (much thanks to @jamesbradbury).

Hmm, I hadn’t messed with it. Will take a look.

Are there appropriate bandwidths that relate to the mel-bands?

There’s a maths-y part of the patch that converts the mel-bands @attributes into center frequencies, but I don’t know what this means in terms of bandwidths.


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Oh wait.

I think I initially misunderstood.

You mean the equivalent of having a ton of daisy-chained cross~ objects breaking off at the individual frequencies that are needed, and then compensate the gain for each “fork” of that as required?

I whipped something up which works (I think). Unless I’m not understanding, mc.cross~ treats each instance separately, so I just daisy-chained a bunch of cross~ and unpacked the frequencies/amplitudes to them all.

What strikes me here is that the crossover frequencies aren’t centered on the mel-bands, but instead, well, crossover at that point. But perhaps that’s what you were saying with regards to mc.cross~, so if I have a required frequency of 221.833218 Hz, I would then have a crossover that starts below that point and cuts off above it, so the 221 would be in the middle of the band that has been created by a crossover below/above it. Is that right?


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KMC
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------

I think it might be as simple as setting the cross over frequencies for each cross~ at the midpoint between successive centre frequencies in that list you’re already generating. The idealised mel filters are meant to be triangular, fading to nothing at the centre of the next band down.

1 Like

That makes sense.

Although the “middle” would be on a log scale or would it not matter here?

Pretty sure it doesn’t matter, but fair warning, I’m having a slow brain day. Give it a shot…

Argh. very slow brain day. mc.cross~ isn’t the thing here at all because you want a cascade of crossovers, not a paralell bank, sorry.
This sort of thing, which is some tedious patching:
Screenshot 2020-06-12 at 13.42.53

Yeah that’s essentially what I did with the patch above, except minus the frequencies being in “the middle” of the crossovers. I was a bit confused as to what happened with the upper-most band as I seemed to have more frequencies than I crossovers, but I think that falls on me.

With regards to log “middle”, I’ll just do that my converting everything with ftom and back, since it’s not much extra faff. The main faff will be all the daisy-chaining of stuff.

Probably not too cheap this approach, but faster>cheaper at the moment.

Shoudln’t be especially expensive relative to cascade. Some JS (or, more painfully thispatcher scripting) would make for a more flexible way of generating the daisy chain long term.